SHOULD CHRISTIANITY TURN AWAY CROSS-DRESSERS, OR TRANS-GENDER PEOPLE SEEKING TO KNOW GOD AND JESUS
77HOW WOULD JESUS ANSWER THIS QUESTION
Today I was browsing through the HUB "Answer" section on Christianity and I happened to stumble across two extremely controvercial questions being asked.
The first question was asked by Gae Hall to all Pastors.
Even though I am not a Pastor, but merely a Lai-Person, as a Christian I felt both a need and a duty to offer my answer, giving my two cents worth, if you will. Her question was as follows:
"How would you respond to a Cross- dressing man attending your church?"
The second question was asked by Shili978
"Can one be a Trans-gender Christian?"
I responded as a simple Lai-person to both questions, which can be seen in the HUB "Answer" section under Christianity.
The more and more I thought about both questions though, the more I began to wonder, so I decided to combine both questions,making a Hub out of them. First I remembered back to the story in The Old Testament, about Wise King Solomon, and his idea to decide how to identify the true mother of an infant while two women claimed to be the mother of the child.
I then began wondering just how Jesus or one of the early Christian Apostles might have responded to such questions. My mind first rushed to JOHN: 3: 16-18 where Jesus spoke to His Apostles the key words in this quote are "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish," I also happened to recall JOHN: 3: 3, where Jesus speaks again saying "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
My mind then raced to yet another Quote by Jesus, "Judge not lest ye be judged." Yet another scripture jumped into my mind at JOHN:5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son."
I then immediately recalled Jesus drawing in the earth, as he questioned the towns-people who sought to stone the woman caught in adultery, after all of the towns-people had dispersed without throwing even one stone, Jesus asks the woman, where are those who accuse you and she reponds that none remain then Jesus tells her "Neither do I accuse you. Go and sin no more." My mind raced from scripture to scripture addressing how I feel Jesus might have responded.
I came to the conclusion that Jesus said it best though in MATTHEW: 28: 19-20 Where Jesus instructed The Apostles to: "Go ye therefore, and teach, all nations baptizing them in the name of The Father, and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
Jesus did not say to only deal with the righteous, especially as He Himself did not come to save the righteous, but He came for the sinner, so that He might call them unto Himself.
Therefore in both cases, that of the cross-dresser as well as the trans-gender who seek to become Christian, who seek to know God and to know Jesus and to know The Holy Spirit, in my personal opinion it would be UnChristian like and wrong to turn these people away from the church.
I believe that in time, The Holy Spirit would deal with the cross-dresser, and as long as the trans-gender person did little or nothing to draw unnecessary and undesirable attention to themselves, they both should be welcomed. It may be a little bit shocking in the beginning, but as time goes on, the uncomfortableness will or should disipate and eventually go away.
To turn our backs on people to deny them the opportunity to learn about and to know both God and Jesus, just as we know them would be infact standing in judgement of them and of course Jesus Cautioned us against that again and again, especially when he reminds us to first remove the beam in our own eye, before we concern ourselves with the sliver in our neighbours eye.
If a woman comes to church, dressed in a man's suit, complete with tie, which pastor, which parishoner is going to look down upon them, or would we compliment them on the way they are dressed. We cannot practice a double standard permitting a woman to dress as a man, and then turn around and tell a man he has no right to wear a dress to church, as long as it is not revealing and is in good taste. Almighty God will work things out in His perfect timing, and His perfect way, to His Glory. Think about this. If a man entered the church wearing a Kilt, should he be denied the right of association or the right to learn about and praise God?
As for as the trans-gender person, the deed has been done. The person was uncomfortable with the way they were, so they flipped from one gender to another. God still sees a person seeking to know Him and love Him. God sees a person from the inside out seeing their heart first. God would not turn away even one child of His, so long as the person genuinely loved Him and accepted Jesus as their saviour and redeemer. This is what Christianity is based upon. This is why Atheist, Jew, Gentile, all are welcomed to worship Almighty God and Jesus.
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Brother John aguasilver, thank you for agreeing. It's not often you and I see things in agreement. It's refreshing to know that I can still get something right.
Dave..I agree with you...we must welcome ALL people, even murderers and prostitutes...its between God, His love for those people and He will on His time help all sinners grow from glory to glory...the first foundation should be faith in God...that will lead to a love relationship with God...I know...I was there...I also had to learn to trust God first and then I could love Him...no use we are as clean as the pharisees but we do not have the love for God in our hearts...then we are like a white painted sepulchers filled with dead bones...many blessings to you... :)
Marliza, you are right. God will in His Good time, find His perfect way to work with these people for His Glory. I would not look down upon, nor judge a woman for wearing a man's suit complete with tie at church, so why would a man in a dress be any different.
As for the trans-gender person, granted the outward appearance has been altered to help the person feel more comfortable with themselves, BUT, if we only see the outward appearance and not the heart and soul of the person, then we only see a reflection and a portion of that person. God sees us from the inside out.
Brother Dave.
agree Dave brother. Christ came for sinners. As you said when Christ comes into the Heart he changes us. We want to do what is right in his eyes. We can not slam the door on these people. They are searching just as we were. It does not mean the church has to marry them. May God continue to Bless your works. I have new hub (trusting child) It was a hard one fo me hmmm, come and visit my brother. I miss seeing your loving spirit. Hugs Brother. Your sis in Christ. Keep pressing on. LOVE you. Hugs
skye2day, when Jesus was given the twelve aposteles to teach and care for by God. Not one was perfect or sinless, and he judged none of them, but accepted them with whatever faults they had.
As far as the church marrying them goes you are right, as long as we treat them with respect, and love as Jesus would ask, and welcome them as individual members that is all they deserve or anyone deserves.
Like Jesus teaches love the sinner hate the sin.
Trust God to correct what needs to be correcting.
Brother Dave.
As a minister in a progressive denomination, I was pleased to read this hub. God loves us. Jesus loves us. Our congregation is open and affirming....We welcome people where they are on their journey. Thanks.
Thanks you for the article and the good comments that followed.
In addition I fully support the profound conclusions you stated.
Having said that, my observations reveals a concern in the manner in which too many Christians arrive at their conclusion. Christ and many more would have arrived at these conclusions quite differently.
Each of us has a body, mind and a soul.
The concern is that too many Christians first go to their minds, which may lead them to scriptures, sometimes to pastors, or others to arrive at their conclusions. They ignore other data from observations, true feelings and experiences. There is nothing evil or Godly about this.
However, we are not our minds. Our minds exert a lot of control over us and we get lost in it.
However, to really reach God we have to be out of our minds. Yes, “out of your minds”.
A warning now, your mind may fight and not let you listen to me. But bear with me.
Remember when Moses was asked to strike that rock for water, his mind was in the way.
Remember you are the temple of God, so he is there always waiting for you. You soul can reach God better than any mind or any word. God prefers not to use words, as there are many truths and messages that words have not and cannot express.
Then you can arrive at conclusions like Christ and other spiritually evolved beings do. Even others, like non-Christians and children who can’t read scripture or understand words have known to practice this. They will allow the cross-dresser to seek God in their presence. God communicates to everyone every time, but their minds restrict or stops God’s input.
Christ illustrated this point by picking a Samaritan, an outsider with little knowledge of scriptures, as the best Christian example. In that story, to love your neighbor as you love yourself is such thoughtless action that can only come from that Samaritan’s soul. Many of us have experienced when our first reaction from the soul was to help someone, but later our mind convinced us from not going ahead.
In the same story, the Levite who is more tuned to scriptures, shut his soul and through his mind decided it is not worth it to assist that stranger in distress.
So listen and observe the issues before you. Observe those truths around you. Such observation is a holy and a Godly act. Ignorance is the opposite. So observe everything as much as you can, then go into your God-space, meditate and feel His answers about the issues you face.
Though your creative mind is powerful tool in area such as science, theology, technology, and business, it is not helpful in touching God.
My reason for asking the question that Dave Matthew's responded to was to see to what extend were Christians walking by faith and not by sight. Too often we judge people by their external appearance instead of looking at their heart which is struggling to be set free of oppression and anxiety.
While I do not agree with everything everyone has written, I do believe that if church is to be the representative of Jesus on earth we must encourage and welcome all to draw near to Him - as He is the only one who can deliver us from our infirmities.
I hope the message that is coming forth is that God sets the trans-gendered free.
Good Hub Dave. We should endeaver to lead all men/women to Christ. We are not to judge but He is the judge by and through the Bible and when we point out those judgements they are not ours but His. There is no sin that the Blood cannot cover. However the Apostle Paul did not continue to be a prosecutor of the church and a murderer after his conversion. Matthew gave up his thieving and tax collecting to follow Christ. Jesus told the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more." When we follow Christ we are to forsake our sinful ways.
Hi Dave! No one is exempted from being a Christian no matter how grievous his sins could be.For as long as he has sincerely repented and willing to turn back from sin and has truly accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior then he has all the right to enjoy Christianity. After all God himself came to seek and save those which are lost. But it must be noted that as one is converted, a new life follows as a proof that a conversion really took place. Anyone who is in Christ is a new creature, the old nature has passed away everything becomes new. So a real convert undergoes changes to become more like Jesus. A cross-dresser or a trans-gender becomes cross-dresser or trans-gender no more by God's wonderful grace.
davidisaiah, I actually found it annoying that a question like the two I discovered in the "ANSWER" section were being asked. God forgive me for getting angry with those questions. I hope my hub has scripturally answered the two women asking those questions in a satisfactory manner.
Brother Dave.
Thesource, my friend, I guess I must be one of those who is out of my mind, as you put it. God is awaiting every individual who desires to seek Him out and to know Him. The extent of one's desire is theirs to decide.
Brother Dave.
GaeHall, First off one small correction. The spelling of my family name has but one "T" Mathews. It is a common error to add the second one.
I'm so glad to read this response. God set the trans-gender free through the surgical operations they under-went. I hope that God sets free the minds of those who see the new person in the trans-gender.
Brother Dave.
Thank you Dave Sibole for your comment on this Hub. It truly pleases God as well as me that you chose to drop in for a read.
Brother Dave.
Dear Greenlily, One thing you must understand about the trans-gender person is that physically they cannot change back the work of the surgeon, and we should not as Christians expect them to. Spiritually though you are right.
Brother Dave.
Dave to me being a Christian is about being tolerant and loving and understanding as you pointed out that is what Jesus himself was. I great well thought out and answered hub of your own interpretations.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." —Leviticus 20:13
The Bible CONDEMNS homosexuality!
God created Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve...
The Bible makes no apologies. Homosexuality is Sodomy, it is wickedness in the sight of God.
"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." -Romans 1:27,32
I do NOT judge anyone, but the Bible will be every man's judge...
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." -John 12:48
Every Christian believer should stand with uncompromising PROTEST against homosexuality. It is unimaginable that a day would come in America when a homosexuality agenda would be FORCED upon children in our public schools. We MUST protest against such evils in our society. The word "protest" means...
Being politically correct or intimidated by the current mantra of accepting homosexual lifestyles means little where the Bible is concerned.
Think it out people.
People seem to forget to become a Christian they have to have been forgiven of their sins. Do I agree with the homosexual life style? No.Do I agree with the murder, the adulator, the fornicator, the person that serves idols, the liar, the thief, those that deny Christ? No, I do not. When I teach children's church I talk to the kids about how sin hides them from God. I ask them if they remember playing peek a boo when they were small. Most of the kids said they did. Then I ask them to show me how they hid so no one can see them. They all covered their eyes and face. Then I had them to put their hands down and one by one they took their turn doing it again. As they did I explained that is how sin hides us from God. The sin covers our eyes so we cannot see and God cannot see anything but the sin. As we repent the sin is removed and we can see God and He can see us. Our names will be written in the Lambs Book of Life. Then it is up to us to keep God word in our hearts and communicate with Him. As for the accepting sin, Jesus didn't. For that cause he came into the world, that we may be forgiven.(John 8:10-11) He told the woman that was caught in adultry,"Woman where is thine accusers?" Then he said the most loving thing, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
When we first gave our hearts and lives to our Father we had a lot to learn. We had to learn to walk in faith, forgiveness and love.
If our walk is full of judgement, then we will be judged as we judge. Thank God He looked beyond all my sins and called me by name and forgive me. The word says we must renew our minds daily, so that we can lay down the old man and walk in the new.
I don't think people should turn away ANYONE looking to know God and Jesus.
Jesus himself went to people he knew were sinners and witnessed to them, and through that love he hoped they turned from their sin.
Now while I don't personally believe transgender individuals or people who cross dress are sinning at all (nor is it mentioned in the Bible I believe), and I don't believe transgender individuals can be changed, those who do believe that they can through God should be the first ones to help them find God.
People who attempt to replace God and believe that they themselves can change sinners, or that they themselves should be the judgement of who can and cannot worship God are not doing Christ's work.
Billy, I simply respond in a manner according to what Holy Spirit guides me to. Thank you God for opening my mind on these subjects.
Brother Dave.
The Truth Hurts, Friend, if you were on topic, I would not mind you expressing your views in HUB form. The Fact is though, you are not even close to the topics being discussed in my HUB. I will though leave your comment for others to read. Please next time try and stay with the topic at hand.
Brother Dave.
msann1949, you make many valid points in your comment. I believe that we have no right to stand in judgement of the cross-dresser or the trans-gender, especially if they are reaching out to try and find and know God and Jesus, as a matter of fact I believe it is our obligation as a Christian, to reach out with love for them and try and help them in their search for God.
Brother Dave.
Alex, AMEN! my brother, point well made. Any person, no matter how sinful especially if they are perceived living in a life of sin, deserves our utmost attention as Christians, to introduce them to God, and enable them to experience the warmth and love of God and Jesus in their lives, as we do.
Brother Dave.
I do agree with you or the person who asked those questions. People get too wrapped up in what is on the outside on they don't really put more faith on what the person is on the inside. The body is merely a shell. Although we don't know everything that Jesus did and he may have done more with the people who are confused as to what body they got with what they really see themselves as. John 20:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)
Lady G. good to read from you again. God wishes all of His children to come to know Him and love Him. We do a dis-service to God if we do not help those we might find a little bit strange to draw near to Him because we do not feel comfortable near someone a little different.
Brother Dave.
Well when God is within you and everyone then it is kind of easy to not see the outside of a person, their shell and how it wants things to be. We also must remember the body as a puppet or it's own machine. It's just a vessel in which we came her to use as we learn our lessons to accept everyone and to Love and have compassion for each other because we are all from the same source and all have the same energy s the energy that is called GOD that is in and of everyone and everything. Jeus wore a dress and so did most of the people in his time. There was no such thing as pants or shorts to distinguise a man from a woman in those days.
Who teaches us not to be comfortable with those that are different from our ways or looks or what society tells us things should be? We do, as in people, as in humans and not the energy that is God/Creator/Universe.
A man/woman may look different on the outside but on the inside they just want the same things we all do and that is LOVE and what is LOVE? GOD is LOVE and LOVE is GOD--inseperable.
Jesus's words about the God being within you:
Luke 17: 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lady G. what you say makes much sense. Thank you! As you say the human body is but a vessel to house our spirit in while here on earth, and yes truly during the times Jesus walked the earth, there was no such thing as slacks or pants, all wore a form of dress, even the Roman soldiers.
Brother Dave.
Dave, I am on topic. The simple point is this; homosexuality is a sin like any other, but unlike any other it has a special place as an abomination. Spread the word and show acceptance and love - to a point. Beyond doing the work as a disciple of Christ one has NO business hanging around with those that would defile God's intentions.
God does not look the other way when it comes to homosexuality - which has shown to be a doorway lifestyle for many that later devolve into pediophiles and/or incest.
We are living at a point in time when a minority seeks to force-feed its views on the majority. Our children are being forced to accept the homosexual lifestyle as "normal".
Christ needs to return soon or an apology might be owed to Sodom and Gomorrah.....and while we are there, ask yourself why God essentially nuked them in the first place.
Love thy neighbor....no question. Accept any and all and spread Christ's message.....but after it is delivered if there is no acceptance of the message or desire to change on the part of the person living a homosexual lifestyle, we are to move on, without hate, but still move on.
Dave, be very careful about the direction you take on this subject and be certain that your message is of the Spirit.
TheTruthHurts, this topic is about crossdressing and transgender people, not about homosexuality. Do not confuse the two, cross-dressers and transgendered people can be gay or straight.
TheTruthHurts is right. I don't think trusting in the bible is a hateful thing, in fact it is anti-christ to deny its truth. I have never hated a gay friend or told them what to do, ever, but if they ask...then I will tell them the truth, that God says what he says because he loves us, not to hurt us, but to save us from pain later on. I know we must accept and love all people, a transgender, should not even be questioned unless they bring it up, it is in the past, but..cross dressing is actually in the bible, and while I won't flip out if I see it, I have known guys who did it before, mostly to ridicule the christian nay sayers in school, and these cross dressers were my friends...lol....BUT..a church is to be respected and you go to the church that suits you, you cannot walk in flamboyantly attracting attention (which it will) if it disrupts the people from what is being preached..its just respect, he/she can do so at any time, but I don't go to church in my short shirts and showing dramatic cleavage either, its simply integrity and respect.
I want to remind you, true christianity is loving others and praying for them, but not seeking the acceptance of those people above God, honestly most of the answers on this Hub are just kissing each others A**'s pleasing men...that is not christianity at all( pardon my french).
I would like to add....the teen mania event in San Fransico, that did not allow adult homosexual protesters inside, because it was for teens...the teens respectfully declined the gay community, claiming abstinence and said they would pray for the people outside, while the people outside were screaming, yelling hatefully and wearing bras on their head with extreme make up etc. for attention....now why is it on this page...it is constantly refered to, that churches are hateful or disrespectful, when not only does it go both ways, but at least the church (most) do it tactfully...I have to say Brother Dave, I agree with half of it..you are right, we cannot hate, and we have to accept them, but they must also accept the church....it takes two to tango.
I didn't know cross dressing was HOmosexuality and I don't think being homosexual is anything like being a pervert. I think some people are getting things mixed up and some people are spreading misinformation
TheTruthHurts, excuse me but you are way off topic. I make no mention of Homo-sexuality anywhere in my Hub. My Hub discusses the right of people with a different appearance to seek God, and whether or not we as Christians should help them in their search for God and their acceptance of Jesus through baptism. Please keep your HOMO-Phobia to yourself, it is not apart of this discussion.
Alex thanks for the defense but I know how to handle confused people too. The important point is they are children of God, created by Him and if the seek to know him, they deserve the opportunity period.
Angel, thank you for your prejudices, but this HUB topic is not about Homo-sexuals at all. It is about a person, maybe a little different, seeking God and wishing to know God and Jesus. Some of the commentors have turned it into a HOMO PHOBIC Forum for their own personal use as HOMO PHOBICS. I could have denied their comments, and maybe I should have but I did not as it would be UNCHRISTIAN to deny them a voice.
Lady G. Thank you for your last comment, definitely neither of the cases I discussed cross-dressing or trans-gender people who wish to seek out God and to know Jesus have any bearing on those HOMO PHOBICS who wish to wrongfully mis-label those in my topic. As a Christian, and as a courtesy, I permitted their freedom of expression, but I can just as easily delete them too.
Brother Dave.
Agree with you one hundred percent Kuya Dave, let not be judge others who want to know more about HIM, Nice and awesome, Maita
Ate Maita thank you for your comment. Indeed all are welcome by God and Jesus, none should be turned away.
KUYA Dave.
Dave, Matthews, Beautiful video of Princess Grace accompanied by “Amazing Grace!” Thought provoking hub!
The Church is opened to all! However, the whole Bible needs to be taught and preached! The Holy Spirit is aware of everyone who is gathered for worship! It is important to ask to be filled with His Holy Spirit and allow the Lord use you as an instrument to minister to His people. There will then be something spoken to edify, convict, encourage and cause everyone to grow spiritually... As long as we are on this side of Heaven it is to grow! “God’s Word will not return void.” Isaiah 55.
The world has deceived many and is saturated with many life alternatives that causes one to travel on the “broad road” That leads to destruction. It is the “narrow road” that leads us to the Lord. We come to Jesus as we are… But once we are truly touched by His Holy Spirit we cannot remain the same. Conversion means to change. This is an internal process! There is an ongoing metamorphosis that is taking place in all of us! We need to know the Word of God to know if we are conforming or being transformed by the renewing of our minds. Romans 8.
“Man looks on the outside. God looks at the heart.” We as the Church are supposed to teach, preach, live out and implement His Word in our lives daily! We will all have to give an account to the Lord for what we do or do not do... And be rewarded accordingly! Christ died for the sins of the world! Whosoever will let Him come….. We are saved by Grace! Salvation is a gift that we receive when we Believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord! Thank you for sharing this sensitve subject! Keep shining the Light of TRUTH! In HIS Love, Peace & Blessings!
DeBorrah much of what you say is correct and makes sense. Since every person is in a different stage of their walk and their learning of God and Jesus, one might assume maybe, that if and when the cross dresser reaches the point that they decide the want to become baptized and become one with God and Jesus, they might through the Holy Spirit's conviction decide that it would be more correct or prudent to stop being a cross dresser, but the person who is a trans-gender, would not be able to do this, for once operated on there is no reversal procedure. We would have to accept them as they are.
Brother Dave.
Hello Dave, After reading all the comments, I have these thoughts on this interesting hub. First, Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. So if they are coming to seek Jesus, God is drawing them. If we turn them away, are we not opposing God? Second, Jesus says if any one comes to me I will in no way cast them out. So if one church doesn't accept them, the Lord will send them to another, where they will be accepted. Finally, many things are called abomination by the Lord. Lying lips are abomination. Cheating in business dealings is abomination. If we kick ot the liars and the business cheaters, attendance will be pretty thin in church. Every one in church is a sinner, or a sinner in recovery. There's always room at the cross for one more. God looks at the heart, not the clothes or outward appearance.
I'm glad you agree with the way I see things, afterall God desires all of his children to come to him, all.
Brother Dave.
Jesus' statement to the woman to "go and sin no more" must have been said tongue-in-cheek because Jesus knew it is impossible for humans to not sin. So why would he say it then? To see if we will get the truth that we are totally dependent on God's good grace through Jesus. Yup, no matter how hard we try we cannot go long without doing wrong to God our our fellow humans. So we are at his mercy--which he has an amazing amount of to save the whole world. I'm glad John 3:16-17 was listed completely because too often verse 16 is quoted in a judgemental way without the reinforcing clarity of verse 17 which emphasizes that God does not intend to condemn any person. Got it? Excellent authors help enlighten this. Robert Farrar Capon's The Mystery of Christ...and why we don't get it. Also his Between Noon and Three: Romance, Law and the Outrage of Grace. Brendan Manning's Ragamuffin Gospel. Annie Lamott Traveling Mercies. Ruth Bell Graham's Prodigals and Those Who Love Them.
Remember the chariot ride of Ethiopean eunuch who was an outsider for nearly all of society and he wanted to know what would prevent him from being baptized. Nothing--so he immediately was. That's the inclusive embrace of Jesus' life and purpose.
Do we get it? We may not understand it but being included doesn't depend on understanding. We are given merciful love anyone. Just like the generous prodical father.
We cannot here this too much...and we need to spread this word. This is what Jesus came to tell all people by his words and actions.
Jesus word is ever proclaimed on the Hubs of this writer. All people have to do is to read my hubs prepared through the powers of the Holy Spirit in me.
Brother Dave.
aguasilver Level 6 Commenter 23 months ago
Spot on Dave, good hub with a thoughtfully worked out conclusion.
Thanks,
John